the artisan podcast

ep10| the artisan podcast | marc gutman | storyteller & entrepreneur

Meet Marc Gutman, founder and storyteller at Wild Story the marketing agency for
arts, recreation, and entertainment, helping companies provide refreshment of strength
and spirit, after our work day, and build powerful brands by crafting customer experiences
that create delight and differentiate their brand.

You can find Marc on social at @marcgutman

Check out Marc's own podcast Baby Got BackStory: https://www.wildstory.com/wildstory-podcast/

ep9 | debbie goodman-bhyat | entrepreneur, author & dancer

https://debbiegoodmanbhyat.com/

Debbie is the founder and CEO of Jack Hammer, Africa’s largest executive search firm.

For more than 20 years, she has partnered with some of the region’s top corporations – helping them find great leaders for executive and board appointments. She is currently living in the US, extending Jack Hammer’s footprint to California.

Debbie’s latest start-up business, Virtual Coaching Partners, is a unique digital platform that uses AI to connect entrepreneurs, leaders and professionals with world-class business coaches. 

Her first book, “IntheFlow – Taking Mindfulness to Work”, was listed in the ‘Top 10 Best’ South African business books. Her next one, ‘Inside the Interview – The Secret to Great Hiring Decisions’, will be published soon

ep8 | Remote teams need TLC

Artisan Creative has been a remote team for the past ten years,  Over this period we've learned some best practices and tools that we'd like to share with you.

Remote teams need TLC

T: Technology

L: Leadership

C: Communication

 

If you wish to see the accompanying slide deck, please check out our you tube channel
 

Artisan Creative is a staffing & recruitment agency focused on creative, digital & marketing talent.

www.artisancreative.com

ep7 | the artisan podcast | camilla fischbacher | art director

Our guest today is Camilla Fischbacher, the award-winning Art Director for the 200-year old Swiss textile company Christian Fischbacher.

Camilla has been featured in Architectural Digest, Elle, and Vogue and is the creative force for introducing Benu recycled fabrics. She details her journey over the past decade to bring Benu to the market with her team and create luxurious (flame retardant) velvet fabrics made from recycled pet bottles.  She shares how she's kept innovation and inspiration alive at Christian Fischbacher for both existing clients as well as the new clients who are interacting with their brand for the first time.

Camilla details her journey as a creative herself as a photographer working with B&W film using a Hassleblad camera. She has exhibited in New York, Berlin, Tokyo and Switzerland.

For more info please visit www.fischbacher.com & https://www.fischbacher.com/en/news/benu-recycled

Facebook @christian.fischbacher.1819

instagram @christianfischbacher/

ep6 | the artisan podcast | darcel danielle | stuntwoman & actress

Darcel Danielle

Welcome to the Artisan Podcast where we explore creativity, inspiration and the determination it takes to be an artisan. I'm speaking today to Darcel Danielle, who is a professionally trained actress and stunt performer.

Today she's going to be talking to us about what it takes to pursue your passion, and what she does on a daily basis to fuel that fire for herself to be able to keep motivated and laser-focused on pursuing this career choice.

She's been acting for the past 10 years and performing stunts for the past two. She has performed in numerous feature films, short films, commercials, and TV shows, most recently she is performing stunts in HBO’s Watchmen, starring Regina King, and she has on a regular basis, has been the stunt double for Jill Scott on Black Lightning. 

This is such a motivating and inspiring story of passion and determination. Enjoy.

You can find Darcel Danielle on Instagram and Facebook, and on IMDB 

ep5 | the artisan podcast | daniel hernandez | fashion stylist

Welcome to the Artisan Podcast! Where we explore creativity, inspiration, and the determination it takes to be an Artisan. This podcast is for artisans, by artisans. I'm your host, Katty Douraghy, and I'm thrilled to introduce you to our next guest. 

My guest today is Daniel Hernandez, who is an LA-based fashion stylist and artist. Interestingly, Daniel and I knew each other about 20 years go and have not been in touch for the past 18. And through the power of social media, we connected and decided to have this conversation today. So, let's welcome Daniel to the podcast. 

You can find Daniel Hernandez on Instagram

dannyhernanny/  and nanohernandezartas well as online at http://nanohernandez.com/

ep4 | the artisan podcast | hisano shepherd | pearl designer

Hisano Shepherd is a multi-award winning pearl designer who has created quite the buzz in the industry with her unique and innovative pearl creations.  She is the founder and designer at littleh and the Chief Creative Officer at PearlParadise.com.

Tune in to hear about her journey and the lessons learned along the way.

You can see Hisano's work here

https://littlehjewelry.com/  

Follow her on Instagram and facebook at @littlehjewelry

ep3 | the artisan podcast | joni yamashiro | ux/ui designer

artisancreative.com

Katty: Welcome to the Artisan Podcast. Where we explore creativity, inspiration, and the determination it takes to be an Artisan. This podcast is for Artisans, by artisans. I’m your host, Katty Douraghy and I’m thrilled to introduce you to our next guest. My guest today is Joni Yamashiro, a Los Angeles based UI / UX designer who has been one of our freelancers for a number of years here at Artisan Creative.

I have worked closely with her for our internal collateral, our website, as well as quite a few marketing pieces, as well as several assignments with number of clients. And I just love working with her. There is nothing this girl can't do. From illustrations to avatars to HTML to web graphics to collateral pieces you name it, she can do it. And she always does it with a smile. I’m thrilled to welcome her today to this episode and would love to hear how she got her start. Good morning!

 Katty:  I was thinking about a theme for our talk about this morning. And I thought of determination since certainly you and I have been determined to make this podcast happen.

Joni: Amen! It’s so true. We surely are.

Katty: For the listeners out there. This is Joni and I’s third attempt. We’ve had equipment issues…

Joni: Lots of technical difficulties.

Katty: Lots of challenges. But here we are.

Joni: Yes, here we are. Third time’s a charm, we are determined, we are here.

Katty: That’s right. So, so true. So, on that theme of determination. I wanted to talk about determination in your career path. What was that fire in the belly for you that kept you going?

Joni:  I think as most creatives are. You have to use that creativity to sustain your life really. I feel like if I wasn’t doing something in the creative field then I couldn't really survive and speak my truth and what's truly who I am. So, I think that it really sparks the fire. And because it's hard to sustain a full time gig as a creative, you really have to keep pushing on and like finding that lane that's for you that you can monetize. And, you know, make a living off of. So, being determined to find that creative path, it definitely helped me find my way.

Katty: Yeah. When did you know though, when did you know that creativity, and being an artist was the way that you had to go?

Joni: Well, I always liked art, growing up, and you know, like to draw and all the stuff that kids do, but I never thought that I could make that into my profession. I think most creative people are scared to do that. Because it just doesn't seem like you know, a path that's, that most people do, especially, you know, like... I'm an Asian kid, I was raised by Asian parents, you know, that whole thing, like, you just, you don't see a creative, as the traditional lawyer, doctor, engineer type path. So, I kind of have to, like, figure out what worked for me and like, how I could really use that -- use my creativity to create a lifestyle.

Katty: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And not an easy lifestyle to get started in, right? It's just knocking on lots of doors and going on a lot of interviews.

Joni: Right. Like on that same thing, on determination, you really have to just build your own stuff up. Like I didn't study graphic design, you know? Like, I went to Berkeley, and I started off in Public Health and Art, but I always, like, knew within that path that I wanted to go into design, like at that point, I knew I wanted to go to industrial or product and kind of just because the field is so vast and so, you know, there's so many different paths of design that you could you can follow through like you kind of really have to find, you know, that lane that type that sparks joy for you.

Katty: Exactly. So you are an Angeleno through and through born and raised. But you decided to move away for school, and then you came back, you couldn’t stay away?

Joni: Yeah, I know. Well I didn't go that far. I just went up to Northern California. But I thought I wanted to, like spend my days up there in San Francisco, but I just I came back here, and I absolutely love it. And I'm never looking back.

Katty: It's such an amazing city with so much business growth and opportunities.

Joni: Yeah, I do. That's what I love about this city. It's like, really, whatever you want to find, you could find it. And whatever you want to do, you could do it. Like, you could carve out your own space here and just keep grinding and like, find what you need to find, you know, but it just takes some work. Other places like New York, you know, you walk down the street and life just happens to you. But here, you really have to just, you just find your own path, which is great. 

Katty: Yeah, exactly. And I know that you get a lot of inspiration from your surroundings and from nature and travel. How does the city of LA teach you? What does the city inspire you to do?

Joni: Well, I mean, kind of on that same path, where you really have to kind of dig a little bit. Like on the surface LA is really, you know, kind of intimidating. It's huge. Like, it's not an easy place for like, for newcomers. It's not completely, you know, warm and fuzzy and inviting, like you kind of like you do have to do a little digging. But once you do find that, that thing that like really, you know, inspires you. Like it's out there. You just have to do a little digging. And that's why I love it here so much. Because, you know, there's there's so much individuality here. And that, inspires me too because so many people are able to wave that like, freak flag like you just do whatever it is you and that's fine.

Katty: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's so true. I think I have friends who visit who don't live here. And I think they're always inspired and in awe of how there's just so many different characters and you know, passion, colors, and this city is just so full of everything, it makes it beautiful.

Joni: Well, that and people think that LA has no culture, which I think is hilarious because there's so many different -- I mean, I guess maybe it has an identity crisis because there are so many different cultures packed into like, one small space, but yeah. But I mean, there's, there's really like a lot out there. You just gotta find it.

Katty: But I think we've had a Renaissance. But I think what's -- it's such an exciting time to be in LA right now. Yeah, you know, food and architecture and museums and I mean, there's just so much to do on a daily basis.

Joni: It's so much and new things are happening all the time. Like Downtown LA is changing every time I go out, like every week, that's like a different place. 

Katty: Yeah, yeah. So true.

Joni: I’m just really fan. I mean, like, I grew up here. So to see like, how many, you know, personalities it's gone through.

Katty:  I know you're working full time currently as a UI UX designer at a startup. But you also do quite a bit of freelance work on the side. How do you go about marketing yourself? And what can you share with somebody just starting out in their path, about marketing themselves, and just kind of staying the course?

Joni: You know, when I was starting out, I did a lot of like, like a lot of cold calling, and just being like reaching out to people. And like I wanted to, at that point, when I first started I worked a lot with-- I was really into health and wellness at that point. And so I wanted to work with health and wellness coaches. So I like went on all the forums and Facebook chats and whatever, and reached out to people to do their personal branding. So I mean, you know, the more that you just talk to strangers, I think will lead you down to Interesting paths, definitely. But also, you know, paths that lead you to the next place. So, just not afraid to like, make some noise, I think, is what helped me start out.

Katty: Well you’re definitely not the shy type.

Joni: Not anymore. But I think it's because I did a lot of that a while ago.

Katty: So you are your own marketing engine?

Joni: Well, yeah, you kind of have to be when you know, you're own business like you have to just get out there and talk to people and, you know, create a community and learn from other designers. And that always leads to other things like a lot, like in the beginning too a lot of the other designers that I would, you know, work with, like on a freelance gig or agency or whatever. Like, if there was something that they didn't have time to do, they would pass on to me. So like, and then those clients will lead to other ones. So it's kind of just one of those ripple effects. You know, that once you just get in there, like, it just kind of snowballs from there.

Katty: Yeah, yeah. Good. Do you also do a lot of social media for marketing your businesses or is it more traditional? Kind of just knocking on doors and who you know?

Joni: Yeah, it's, for me, it's just like a network kind of thing. Like, I don't really, I don't market on social media or anything for like, my personal stuff. Like, I kind of just use that, you know, just that those platforms just to keep our personal stuff. Yeah. But yeah, I mean…

Katty: Nice. All right, good. And I know that you have plenty of other avenues to unleash your creativity. I know cooking, and food is one way that you do it.

Joni: Yeah. So I mean, that's, that stuff is so much fun. Like, you know, I love to bake. And like, there was a time where I had this Baking Company with a friend who was a florist and, you know, we did a bunch of events, and we would do gifts and stuff like that. And that was really fun. But since then, I've just kind of decided to keep those hobbies, as hobbies, you know?

Katty: Okay. So your single focus is on your creativity.

Joni: Yeah, but all the baking and all that stuff are like more so for the downtime when I need to like decompress from the day to day.

Katty: Yeah. The Zen of it versus the work of it.

Joni: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

Katty: Part of your mindfulness practice, I guess.

Joni: Yeah, it really is. It really is like, it helps to just switch gears and do something different. But that's still creative, you know, like, to still thrash that part of the brain, but in a different way. Well, you inspired me yesterday, after we did our talk that no one's going to hear since we had audio issues. I went and cooked a brand new recipe that I have never done before.

Katty: I know you are a big traveler. So what is -- what's your favorite place that you've ever been to?

Joni: Oh, man, I mean, all they're all so special in different ways. But I really did love my time in Nepal. Like, I feel like the, the people there were just so beautiful and welcoming. And the culture is just so just, you know, be just beautiful. I don't even know how to explain it. But like I stayed at --, I had a homestay and they were just so welcoming to me, and very generous and sweet. And, you know, it's very, you know, low income, but they have, they're so wealthy and many different ways, which is really inspiring, because, you know, here we're working on a totally different framework where we just want more and more and more, but like, they're happy with what they have, you know, so it's really, really inspiring to see a lifestyle, which it's not what you having what you want, but wanting what you have, you know?

Katty: Yeah. Can you -- did you bring some of that back with you? Can you stay in that mindfulness? In that present state?

Joni: I mean it's hard, right? It's hard when we're doing what we do every day. Like, I mean, to have had that experience and to recall that, you know, and, like, kind of just be able to zoom out and be like, you know, there's, there are so many ways to do life, right, like so many different avenues and, you know, lifestyles to choose, and the way that we work here, it's completely different than the way that many other people work in the world. You know, so like to just be conscious of that and know that there are so many ways to do it. So like, you don't have to be pushing all the time. Like it's okay to slow down and just relax and like, clear some stuff off your plate. Instead of just like keep adding things on, you know?

Katty: Yeah. Yeah, I'm trying to practice just being present more and just gonna just take in my surroundings and not be on this auto, you know, this autopilot.

Joni: Yeah, I mean, but it's hard, right? It's, like, that's funny, because that's the thing that we have to work on to, like, practice to, to be chill. Right? You can't just like, enjoy, you know, eating a sandwich. You have to eat the sandwich, and also think about, like the 20 other things you have to do that day, you know, like, you just, it's, it's kind of crazy. Because if your mind just wants to keep busy, but like, once you clear that out, and you know, whether it's through meditation, or just being mindful whenever you're doing whatever you're doing. It's like, the benefits are like is so immense, right?

Katty: Yeah, yeah. It's so true. It's funny you say that, because someone had mentioned mindfulness eating. Oh, and so where you would like take a bite and you go, “hmm that's a tomato. Hmm what a great avocado”.

Joni: Yeah. Which sounds crazy, right? But it's like, it really does change the whole experience. Like I did this whole silent meditation thing, a couple years ago in Thailand, and I got to do this whole, like, like eating prayer before we did it. Before we had lunch before we had breakfast, or we didn't have breakfast, before we had dinner. And, and it totally changes the whole experience, because you're really just there, you're just there with the food in front of you, and nothing else matters, you know, which is so like-- it's crazy to like just whittle it down to that act. But like, how often you're eating and you're always watching something, or you're, you know, you're talking or thinking about a million other things? Like, it's just it doesn't have to be like that, you know, like hectic in your head like…

Katty: Yeah, yeah. Hectic in your head. That's a great statement. You know, it may not look hectic around you, but if it’s hectic in your head, then it’s hectic.

Joni: And the thing is, like, nobody knows that, it's like what's going on in there. It's just you. So like, really, you're just creating, you're creating all this noise and all this, like, you know, chaos?

Katty: Yeah, and what happens to you from a creative standpoint, when you have that chaos and that noise in your head?

Joni: Well, I feel like usually when that happens, and I feel like insane inside. Like, my work suffers, because I'm not in the work, right? Like, I'm like, in a million other places. Like, I'm not just focusing on, you know, whatever job at hand like-- so it takes me longer to like, churn out or like, find, like the correct, or the best solution, you know? Because I'm thinking about a million other things, but when you're present, and when you're just in that project, or you know, in that---, trying to find that one solution to one problem, then you're so much like --your productivity increases exponentially, right? Because you're just there. Doing this one thing at this one time, which is so hard. To get there in the first place, right?

Katty: How do you bring that mindfulness practice to work?

Joni: Well, I mean, I have like a morning routine that includes meditation, and you know, moving my body, I like to exercise and get a little sweaty and stuff and that kind of just like, you know, carries out the kinks. And, you know, I like, like to dance party and whatever, like, break up the day with a little like, body movement. Like, I just feel like, sometimes you just gotta like, shake it out, you know. Like, once you get the crazies out,  physically, mentally it also, permeates you know, getting that just access bullshit, like layer, just skimming the fat off and just being able to, like, be present and get into the work. Like, it really just helps like to shake it out sometimes. And be a little crazy, because like, once you're crazy, like, and you get that out -- because everyone's nuts and you get off the crazy. And then you could just do the work, get the work done. Because you’re not afraid of being weird, because you just are. Everyone is and it's fine. Like, the more that you are afraid of like what other people think about you like, the more I think your work suffers, because you're like, oh, like the client only wants like this. And I know that, you know, like, this is too crazy or whatever. As a creative person, you want to test the boundaries, right? You want your work to reflect your creativity. So once you just push through that barrier of like, not caring what other -- if other people are going to judge your work, then I think your work really will bloom, blossom after that.

Katty: Oh my gosh, that's such words of wisdom especially I think for people who are just starting out in their path. You know kind of mistaking the feedback on the work with the feedback on themselves, right?

Joni: Yeah, totally. Yeah. Which is like, I mean, as a new designer, really just as a, as a younger person, you always take things really personally, especially about your work. And definitely as creatives like we do that, because it is such a personal process creating, you know, a design or anything like it's, you know, it's your baby, it's your child. So like, when someone critiques that, you kind of immediately take that as a personal affront, but it's really not. It's just work, you know, like, and once you're able to, like, you know, cut yourself off from the personal attack cause it's like you once you're able to disengage that and just listen to the person, whoever's critiquing your work and listen objectively and hear them out. Like your work also will reflect that and it will grow as a designer.

Joni: But see, this is the thing too it's like a process, right? And if it's not perfect, it's fine. Like we've talked about that a lot to you know, like, you can't just release something because it's not perfect or give it to you know, your client or who will give it to your boss, because you feel like it should be better. But like, it's never going to be perfect, right? So just get it out there. And like once you just start going and you lose that fear, like the better your work will be because you're just like, “I need like -- I'm going to get out there. I want the feedback. Like I want to get better, like, just kind of get the momentum going.” Right.

Katty: So from your design kind of your iteration process, maybe you could talk a little bit about that, like, at what point do you feel that it's good enough that I can show it and get some feedback?

Joni: Well, as a perfectionist, I like always never feel like it's good enough. But you have to just forget that right?

Katty: You work through it.

Joni: Yeah you work through it. Yeah, you're like you hear that voice, saying that it should be better. And then you're like, you know what, it's fine. I'm going to send it off and see what they say, because they will tell me how to make it better. You know, like, you just have to like, you see how your mind will go to that place to make you stop? And then you're like, Well, why, why do I feel like I should stop? Like, should I stop? Like, no, it's just me telling myself that it's not good enough. So you just, I just have to power through it usually when that voice turns on, because I know it's just a voice, right? So, I mean, sometimes, you know, you just have to like close your laptop, and just come back into the next day. When you're feeling frustrated. You feel like you've you've tried all the iterations that you possibly could and you move on.

Katty: You dance all the dance moves that you can.

Joni: You dance all the dance moves you can. Always more dance moves. Yeah, yeah. You know, in the morning, you come back and you see what you've done. And you're like, Okay, you know, it's always, it's never as bad as it was before. You know what I mean? Like, you're, I mean, at least for me, I'm like, I'm always my hardest critic. So I look at it in the morning and I'm like, “Well, it's not bad. Like, let's see what they say”. You know, so you kind of just have to listen to yourself with caution.

Katty: Yeah, that's good. Listen to yourself with caution. And know yourself, right? I think that's part of it, as well as if you're feeling solid with yourself at the core. Yeah, you can trust yourself.

Joni: For sure. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And but know also that, like, you know, you've been hired for a reason, like you are totally capable, like, you know, like, a lot of the times, you know, at least in the field that I'm in like doing a lot of UI / UX stuff. Like there's not a right answer for everything. There's, there's like a better answer. And there's a like, you know, a lesser answer, but that there-- there's a lot of like, a million ways to do the same thing. You know,  you could go on and on and on, like deciding where to put a button. But it doesn't mean like, one is like, there's a right answer. Right? Like, you could always search for the right answer. But like, you have to stop at some point. Because there's not always like a right answer. And a lot of the things that we do as designers. It's subjective, right? And it's all about perspective and, you know, like, just taste levels, where people like, what, what people prefer. So, yeah, that’s the thing like knowing that there's never a right answer to what we do, which is frustrating, but also great, because we're able to like, mold that ourselves, right?

Katty: Yeah, and it's limitless, right?

Joni: Yeah, yeah. That part.

Katty: And I think the space that you're in, you know, it's a new space. Right? We're constantly innovating. We're constantly pushing the boundaries and it may not be an answer, because it hasn't been done before. So you're in that process of discovering it.Yeah, exactly.

Joni: Yeah. Which is awesome. It's, it's fun to be like, that's why I love this field, because it's always changing, and there's always going to be something new and a new technology to figure out and a new program to, you know, try and it's just, it's like constantly room--there's constantly room for growth, right? Which, which is exciting, and awesome.

Katty: Would you share a little bit about the UI / UX space, just in case, we have listeners who are not too familiar with it?

Joni: Yeah, of course. So, I work at a startup that we have an app and also like an admin tool, and like a client dashboard. So there's a lot of like backend designs to do for in terms of like, you know, how to upload images and, you know, where we have -- so I work with drones and drone imagery and data. And so pilots, drone pilots will use our app to fly and collect the imagery and data. So there's a lot of, you know, integrations with, like drone technology and the software capable of capturing that imagery and data. So there's a lot of, you know, technological, like choices to make and integration to understand and platforms to know, which is awesome. So like, it's all about creating something that's usable for the user, for drone pilots, I guess, in our case. So getting into the mind of those people and people that are using our platform, and figuring out how they're going to best, you know, what's the best way to enhance that user experience? Yeah. It's fun.

Katty: I remember you saying the other when we were talking. You were saying the other day, just in terms of working with product, you said, you know, every time you pick up your phone, you realize that there's a person behind that. That someone did that, someone put those buttons there….

Joni: Yeah, there's a designer behind everything, right. There's a designer behind the computer that you made there’s a designer behind the website that you use, there's you know -- designers create this landscape and the way that we experience the world and like, it's a really powerful experience. It’s a really powerful platform to be on, you know, like, when we kind of take it for granted, you know, yeah, like, it's kind of like a weird, creating this experience for someone else to use. And to not to take that for granted, you know?

 

ep2 | the artisan podcast | anna bondoc | designer & letter artist

You can find Anna’s work on instagram @annabondocartist  and her website http://www.annabondocartist.com/

Anna Bondoc is a Los Angeles based artist, writer, and educator who was originally born in the Philippines, raised in Ohio, and now resides here in LA with her husband, her daughter, and their dog penny. In 2005, Anna started her business on the Bondoc designs, creating just very intricate layered paper cuts for fine art creations, stationery, and creating patterns. Her work has been featured in Apartment Therapy, Traditional Home, as well as Cloth Paper & Scissors, and in 2012 she created a how to book called Simply Paper Cutting. However, since then she has changed gears and she is now working with Pen and Ink, as well as with Alcohol Inks, and I'm curious to talk to her today to find out what else is on the horizon. Ever since I've known her she has been curious, been innovative, and always trying her hand at different things. So I'm really excited to welcome her to the podcast today and learn what else is on the horizon.

Katty: As long as I've known you, you have been dabbling in some sort of a creative endeavor, which is so interesting for me and looking in it's always been so exciting to see all the various mediums that you're touching. I'd love to tell our audience really talk about how you got your start and, you know, where you are today.

Anna: Sure. Well, I love that you use the word dabbling because it sort of characterizes how I approach creativity. And if you ask me how I got my start it, I often have no answer because I have never until recently, and I'm now 50, I hadn't considered myself an artist in professional terms, until I don't know the last five or so years. I know it sounds late but I think because I have always been motivated by almost being a beginner, and being a little bit out of my element and trying a new medium. It's taken me a long time to realize that is my primary motivation and it is not a singular, you know, painting, drawing, graphic design. I've just followed my curiosity, to a large extent, and that's led me to, every medium from Paper Cutting to Pen and Ink drawing to photography graphic design and it's taken me a while to reconcile myself with that because dabbling is not something that I was brought up to do. I was brought up to focus and to choose and so I never really committed to one type of art or creativity, and that's just the way I am, even though I have tried to commit to one thing or another.

So there's been actually no particular start, but where I find myself now is an interesting time that you come to me because I finally had my first solo show of art, and had a business which didn't do so well under my belt, but I feel like an artist and they have not gone back to teaching which is what I did in between doing creative projects.

But I had a bit of sort of fallow period at the start of January where I had this great show and everybody said to me, “oh you're going to keep drawing, or your going to keep doing your paintings, you have momentum now you've had sales.” And to be honest, when I sat down with myself I just was not feeling it for those things anymore, and they felt like finite experiences as though I'd written a book and I wasn't going to rewrite that book. So where you find me now is, after a period of frantic creative block, I finally have found some momentum in a project that combines my writing, drawing, and design skills, and it has no particular form, so I'm a little bit insecure about it. But it's it's one of those times where, you know, creative people tell you all the time. “I don't know where this one came from, but it's here and now I'm either going to work with it, or I'm not” and I decided that I want to work with this one. Even though I'm not exactly sure where it's headed.

Katty: Okay. You letting the creative process guide you...

Anna: Yes, and you know, usually I don't let that happen until I found a medium and sort of played with like “oh my Pen and Ink drawings, here I'm going to learn how to use this medium, and then I'm going to practice with it I’m going to study and I'm going to research.” This one is much more unruly than that, and it's different for me, but I think, I think it's my age where I just kind of say “you know what, creativity, isn't like a horse that you harness.” I don't want to romanticize it because I don't necessarily believe in the muse or whatever, but I do think that there's a reason that creative people talk about muses as being something outside of themselves that decides to visit. This one feels like a combination of a lot of things that I'm interested in, and it's nudging me to put it all together.

Katty: Fabulous. Well, you mentioned something early on in the conversation about being a beginner, it kind of made me think of that beginner's mindset, which is filled with curiosity. And, this sounds like that to me. You know, the curiosity of where it's going to go and you're just allowing that flow.

Anna: Allowing is a big thing for an artist, right, like for anybody. And I happen to also be a control freak. So it's a...this particular one began with a sudden urge, and curiosity to investigate typography and fonts. It kind of appeared one day, to me, I felt like drawing but I didn't feel like drawing the way I had done abstractly for many years actually in my that resulted in my last show that you saw. But this one I had the urge to make forms, but not people. I don't like to necessarily render objects or trees or things like that. I'm sort of more of an abstract thinker, but I kind of resisted this because I thought, “Well, I'm not a typography designer. I don't know why I want to do this it's unclear, this is weird.” But sometimes it just keeps asserting itself and I think that the only issue I have with beginners energy, it is a wonderful playful, curiosity driven as you said energy. But the problem with people like me is that when you get to the point where it feels a little boring, or you can easily abandon projects. When it's no longer that first blush, of ooh this is exciting, I don't know how to do this, sometimes I've dropped projects that I should have probably just stuck through in some particular way like made it fresh or beginning or added something to it so I'm learning how to play with that.

Katty: Okay. Because I remember you saying that when you feel that you're not learning or growing anymore you, maybe you just switch mediums. So how to -- what I'm hearing is trying to figure out a way to harness that and see it through versus switching partially, right?

Anna: Yes. I think that what I'm doing right now and we're talking about like two days. Of this realization is that the current project that I'm working on, let's describe it as a combination of trying to use charts and graphs and visualizing the data of my life, and trying to apply almost mathematical chart making skills to things that are very esoteric and abstract and like midlife crisis oriented. So it's very chaotic but I think that what I have decided to do with this project is to conceptualize it as a bunch of different tasks which include, drafting, writing, sketching, doing typography, maybe a little photography and so what I've structured is almost like I'm a person who went to Montessori and in Montessori, they say, rather than following first math then science, kids have a period in which they can choose okay I'm really drawn to this. Right now I'm feeling it, I'm really drawn to this task right now, and so what that allows me to do is from day to day instead of grinding it out and say, I'm going to finish the spread today or this sketch. I really look at it and I say okay where's the energy good today? And maybe sometimes I literally only work on it for 20 minutes, and then I feel a little bit of stuckness or meh, it’s not happening, and then I can jump and look at some books that I've bought to help me, inspire me to design a certain way.

So that I feel that beginner energy from day to day, and I'm really following my pleasure and my joy and my playfulness rather than employing this part of me that's more grim determination, which is sometimes necessary. You know, we have to use discipline at one time or another but I think for me, that's a buzzkill. I've just considered myself one of those people like “well we have to get through the buzzkill part.” It’s kind of like, people who want to go exercise or do something that’s not natural to them, and if they don't find a source of pleasure in it, you're not going to continue with that habit. So I'm become a believer in listening to the voice inside that says, “This is what wants to happen this morning or this afternoon”, and I just chunk it out. I just chunk out my tasks rather than thinking about it as some long march to work.

Katty: Got it. Because I know you've spoken in the past about really cultivating that creative practice. How does this fit in with that? Is it just as cultivating the creative practice but in shorter bursts, or whenever it happens to strike?

Anna: That is a really good question, I think it's the shorter bursts concept and being okay with it. I think that there are many books out there about creativity, or business or whatever and those are all incredibly helpful. But there comes a point at which you need to really personalize and tailor the information that you're taking in about how to work, how to best be creative and, it's very easy to slip into the mode, for me anyway of, “oh, look how so and so is doing it. Look how they got it done. Why am I not doing it that way?” And it's easy to reframe short bursts which I have done as dilettantism, a jack of all trades, master of none, can't finish a project, you know, undisciplined...and at a certain point, you just have to look at the nature of the work and say, “Is this work good? Is it worth continuing? Is the way I'm working in concert with the work as it wants to be made too?” Because not every project is the same either, like writing for me I have to say, does not come as naturally as drawing or sketching and it's not as pleasurable.

Katty: You started out your path as a writer.

Anna: Yeah, that is true, I would say that my entry point to creativity, in terms of academic studies and my degree was an English major. I learned how to be creative through the written word, but in fact I think that this latest project that I'm working on started out as me wanting to tell some wisdom and stories and anecdotes from my life, but I became impatient with linear thinking and words require linear, you know, first the subject and the verb then the next thing and the descriptor. But what I started doing was, as I was journaling to try to write about these things, it's just sort of naturally happened I'm like I'm just going to try to stretch what I mean. And let me see if I can create an image that conveys the same thing that I'm trying to say, in a way that pleases me is more naturally pleasing to me, which is to say graphically and drawn, and as we all know, that's why road signs are not all written in paragraphs, the image is much more sort of holistically digested. So, what is pleasing to me now is, I'll write almost a caption to the image and then the two are conjoined, and work in concert, almost like you know, the children's book writer will do is, the image has its weigh, the writing has its weight, and they work to inform each other and that has been much more pleasurable to me to write than just straight paragraphs and essays.

Katty: Now, is the typography that you're doing is this pen to paper? Is this digital was the medium that you're using there?

Anna: I’m a strange person in that I can't seem to make designs on the computer at all. I think that one of my goals in life had been in my 20s to be a graphic designer because it does merge word, and the written word and images. I love that interaction, but I could never make myself enjoy-- It felt almost like I was wearing gloves or there was a glass wall between me and my art, and I really have been drawing all my fonts even if they are, you know, German Gothic black letter thick fonts I really enjoy the process of hand lettering with a pencil, for now. And the pencil keeps me really loose and less worried about outcome. I noticed that when I try to shift right now to pen, or do a finished drawing, it's another buzzkill where it keeps me tight, so I have to work pretty hard to just retain that an original freshness to my to my ideas at this point.

Katty: I'd like to see it when you're at that stage to show it.

Anna: I think more and more because of Instagram and because of social media, there is, a movement for artists to show their process. I love looking at people's Instagram stories where you track backwards, where the iterative processes of creativity. I love that. I think people are really like using it, I think, artists, when I was in an artist mastermind group we talked about being able to convey the value of our art through price, you know so hard to price your art, but when people understand your story and then it's not just this you know pricing by size and inches but they really see that you've made small sketches or you've done this or thrown this out. People, I think they will buy your story, ultimately.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely and it's you know it's an iterative process. If you know i don't think art necessarily is easy to look at a piece of paper or a piece of art and say, “Oh, great.” But, you know, the months or the years that it may have taken to take into that place, and that's just the value of thinking.

Anna: Well, yes and I was thinking the other day that the disadvantage that artists have, in some ways is that, I think your average person who doesn't necessarily create a lot, they have this notion that the time it takes for them to consume the art is comparable to the amount of time that it took to produce that art. I watch people stand in front of paintings, and they breeze past and it kind of pains me, you know, not mine even other people's. Like I was at LACMA just watching people breeze past, snap a photograph of themselves in front of a drawing. I don't have a problem with that per se, but I read somewhere I wish I could remember where it was a challenge to stand in front of an artwork for, I don't know 15 minutes, and that's not very long but the, what you encounter, and what you're forced to encounter in 15 minutes in front of one work of art, you realize how much you breeze past, and you don't take it.

Katty: That happens for some of the artists that we work with on more commercial work, design work, where, you know, when a client is looking for an estimate,it's really necessary to think about the hours to actually produce the work and forgetting about the hours that it's going to take just to conceptualize it.

Anna: Yes, and also on, I mean because I do more fine art, I have done more fine art work. Recently, it is the -- I mean it sounds so esoteric but it's really the courage to kind of put your life story, your life values, something you have to say into that. That is, that's just living. You can't, you can't put a quantity or, qualitative judgment on wisdom that one is gleaned about nature or about, aging, or parenting or whatever that's the poetry and that's what makes it hard to be an artist, because you shouldn't expect that everybody would understand that, and yet if you're trying to make a living doing it and applying your visual talents to a commercial realm, you kind of have to be understanding that people aren't going to be interpreting your work the way that you what you brought to it emotionally.

Katty: Yeah, everybody looks at it through their own lens.

Anna: That's right. You have to let it go. But the paycheck may not reflect what you put in.

Katty: It’s true. I knew in your previous  work that I'm familiar with your patterns and your dots and you murmurations nature has been a huge source of inspiration for you. Where is the inspiration coming for the new work that you're doing?

Anna: Oh, I'm going to laugh at myself now because I don't even want to tell you, and I'll tell you why because I am sort of -- I'm outing myself now. I'm a secret hoarder of self-help books. And, and I'll tell you, I'll just out myself again like I have them, and they're all facing the spines are all facing the other way underneath my desk, and I don't know why I should be so embarrassed about this but they are so, I mean, some of them have changed my life, right?

Like some of the especially the Buddhist, the Buddhist so let's not even call them self help books, but they're very much about inquiry. Yeah, why are we here? What makes a meaningful life? And I have just made that shift in my life, in the last probably the last decade, especially. I have been trying to find a way to, I don't know, express my interest in them and generate something from within me and then interpret that visually for a lot of years. Or not visually at first, but actually through written stuff and it all sounded so, overly earnest, almost cultish, very esoteric, and believe me like I read a lot of this stuff and I love it. But I've been trying to find a way to express it in a way that I feel has some levity and humor and beauty and anecdotal, maybe a little self-deprecation. I am just one of those people who is an over-thinker, I'm philosophical by nature, and I've been trying to find a way to bring it down to earth because I do have a very skeptical cynical side of me too. And so I think that I'm trying to make that kind of important meaningful wisdom, accessible in a visual form. That's my current project.

Katty: It's interesting you use the word wisdom because that's the word that was playing around in my head, as you were talking. Whether it's just coming to this, you know, time in your life. But that's the word that's coming to me.

Anna: Well, I appreciate that. And I and I will say too, I think some of that wisdom has been a hard one, because of my particular experience growing up as an artistically minded a philosophically minded creative person in a family of Asian immigrant parents.  I'm not trying to stereotype but there is a particular expectation that you be pragmatic about your life and how you make money and what you study. My creativity was amusing to my parents, but it was not, it was not something that they were going to support as a way of living, and so I think, ironically, like, I think my commitment to this project this latest project and to finding wisdom is kind of asserting that you know artists and creative people have a particular path. And particular obstacles that they have to overcome and those coupled with that of immigrant parents who say to you, you know, just go, it's not boring but like just go be a doctor, an engineer and then you can do the stuff on the side. This has been my way of saying, you know what, I've tried that way, it didn't work, and now I really value, I value my creative talents, I value the way that I express them, and I do believe that there's wisdom for me to share, not so much like, “Oh, I know better and I'm going to tell you how to do it”, but I find the most satisfying encounters with my artwork is when people say to me, “I so connect with you about this. I felt alone in this and now I don't.” And I think that to me is why I've turned to the books why turned to certain artworks and I guess my hope has always been that I could provide a piece of art or writing that can make somebody else feel a sense of relief in that regard too.

Katty: What would you say to someone who is maybe in this searching mode, early in their career? If some of the books that maybe have really helped you and you mentioned there was a couple that really changed your life. Are there any recommendations that you could share with the audience?

Anna: Sure. Well, for me personally and this is a little esoteric but Pema Chodron, any of her books. The ones that I'm thinking right off the top is The Places That Scare You and When Things Fall Apart. It sounds very dire but it's not. She just reset my thinking as many Buddhists will, that we spend so much time segregating what we perceive to be good and bad things that happened to us in life and the times to -- we spent a lot of energy segregating. “I don't want this, I want this. This will be good for my career, this is not. This is great art, this is crappy art that I've made or whatever.” And I think when you get to a certain level of maturity, you start to accept that it's all mixed in, that it's all a portal to wisdom in some way or another if you have the right frame of mind towards it and just certain patience and acceptance. And that doesn't mean rolling over and play dead but it just means don't spend your energy, pushing back, all the things that you think are going to be bad for you because some of the most frustrating things that have happened to me as an artist and creative person have led me to some real breakthroughs and that's just the truth of it. And then there's another book, which is radically different in tone, but kind of soothes the cynic and the hard ass in me, is Steven Pressfield’s book, The War of Art. And it is brief, and it's cogent, and he basically in his own way says, “Stop whining don't spend your energy on that all artists are going to encounter obstacles. Get up do the work.” And the way I interpreted his work because it's a little bit harsh is if I had to summarize it for myself and how I metabolized his writing was, every piece of art that you do for me, every drawing is a study for the next drawing, everything. And so, yes there is a time at which you have to say, “Okay, I'm going to make this finished piece of art that I want to sell or that my client wants, or whatever.” But in order to relieve yourself of that stiffness and anxiety and putting too much weight on yourself or the project, you really have to face the truth that every piece you make is your education for the next attempt. It’s all an attempt, it's all an experiment and stop thinking about it too hard and just make the thing, and be you know truthful about whether it's worthy of presenting to the world and I would, I don't know, in the last series I did my ink paintings, I would say, was the ratio of the ones I kept to not were one out of twelve. And that's okay, you know like, you can whine about the other eleven, and berate yourself or you can be grateful that you have the time and energy and talent to try to make these twelve, and you got one out of them. Great. That's kind of what I take from his book.

Katty: They're building blocks. Right? Yeah, one foot in front of the other.  Well thank you for sharing those and surely thank you for sharing your wisdom. I think that, especially for someone who's starting out, and hasn't necessarily come into their own as they're listening to this podcast I think you're sharing a lot of nuggets of what you've gone through and have come out on the other side and recognizing why you're doing what you're doing, as well, just accepting the process.

Anna: Well, I would say too, and this is just something I've been thinking about this week to add to what you're summing up there is. It's all for me about reframing, not as a Pollyanna way but reframing as a creative act in and of itself. So, use your creativity on yourself and that is an act in an of itself, is to reconsider how you work, the methodologies, try things that are new if they don’t work.I mean these are all similar to the actual creative acts themselves, but you can apply that same creativity to your own emotional states, your own psychological states. It's all of a piece, nothing is separate. I mean I kind of think of it as like a creative ecosystem where it has to be healthy and sort of balanced for all the elements to work in a healthy way.

Katty: It’d be cause and effect in there so, absolutely.Because I know, you know, just in having known you over the years that innovating is very important to you and so it is just beautiful to see how all of that is coming together at this point.

Anna: Thank you, I appreciate that because it doesn't always feel like there's a through line. But I guess for creative people the through line is one's actual self. You have to honor that.

Katty: Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Artisan podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Artisan Creative, a staffing a recruitment firm specializing in creative, marketing, and digital talents. You can find us online at artisancreative.com or via social channels @artisancreative We look forward to connecting.

 

 

ep1 | the artisan podcast | daniel zimmerman | the king of ice cream

Daniel Zimmerman, an LA-based digital marketer, took a year sabbatical and went on a 50 state search for the perfect artisanal ice cream!

In this quest, not only did he get to taste some spectacular ice cream, he also met some fantastic people along the way. Here he is today to talk about the lessons learned on this journey in pursuit of ice cream. Well, welcome, Daniel. So happy to have you here.

Daniel: Thank you for having me on.

Katty: So I know that you and my colleague Laura had spoken at length about your adventures recently, and I just found it fascinating and I wanted to continue our conversation. I think the audience will just find it really interesting to see the journey that you took, the decisions that you've made to take the sabbatical, and the lessons learned along the way. So I really appreciate you coming on and sharing that with us.

Daniel: Absolutely. If there's anything that you know, I could share with others that would help them along their way in their own journey, I would be more than happy to do it.

Katty: Fabulous. Well, to give some context to the audience, you took a year sabbatical, and you went on the pursuit of tasting ice cream in all 50 states?

Daniel: That is correct, yes.

Katty: So what inspired you?

Daniel: I've always had a love for ice cream. But more specifically then that, it was more like the fear of potential regret. This is, you know, everyone talks about, oh, I want to travel in my 20s I want to explore the world, I want to do all these things. But really, the idea of just always being talk and not actually following through scared me more than not doing it. Which I'm not kind of a strange way to think of it. And really, it was just something that I thought I was at that point in my life where I had some money saved up, you know, I didn't have any real responsibilities in terms of a mortgage, no kids. I still have my metabolism, so I can just eat loads of ice cream.

Katty: Lucky you!

Daniel: Yeah, so I had to do that while I was on the tail end of getting as much out of that metabolism as possible. Really it was just the perfect storm. And I just saw this golden opportunity and I was like, “yeah, you know, what I'm gonna follow through on this, you know, not just talk about it, but actually do it”. So that was kind of the onset initial inspiration.

Katty: How long have you had this idea that one day, I'm going to do this ice cream adventure?

Daniel: So it's always one of those like vague ideas. I never really put like a true concrete plan of going a road trip to all 50 states. It was more along the lines of you know, I've always had a love of ice cream. You know, like I had been eating like every day since a child. July is National ice cream month. So starting college, I would do this thing where every single day during the month of July, I’d try to find a different flavor of ice cream. And then like to eat it and write you know, a tiny review on it. And then like, over the years, they just, the reviews got longer flavors got crazier. And like, eventually people like you know, like, here are some other crazy things that you should do. So they would start sending me links. Someone sent me an ice cream cleanse, which is like a juice cleanse things, but with ice cream. You just eat ice cream for three days straight, and it's like a special vegan ice cream, but you like cleanse your body of toxins, and then you lose weight. So I did it and I lost three pounds in three days, and it was this crazy thing. And then like it just kind of kept snowballing where people would send the other ice cream challenges around the country. And so I just had this ongoing list of like, cool places around the country that you know, like I got to visit. And then from there, it just kind of snowballed into like well, you know, I have like at least two dozen states I need to visit now. So like why don't I just knock out all 50 and I'm sure there's like I supposed best ice cream in every single state. And sure enough, there's all these different publications that have you know, from you know, Scoop Adventures to BuzzFeed, Thrillist to you know, I think PBS had one too, like the best ice cream every state. So I literally just compiled all those lists together and then giant excel sheet. And then that was kind of like my road map of all the places I need to hit up.

Katty:  I love it. So you took your experience with data!

Daniel: Definitely. I did some excel hotkeys there to compile lists.

Katty: That is funny. Well, it's clearly very strategic in terms of how you attack this plan.

Daniel: Thank you. Yeah, like I said, it was something that, you know, there was a kernel that someone else sent into me, and then that somehow, you know, blossomed into something else entirely. So it's not always, you know, to have the crystal clear vision is to be able to adapt along the way and let a small idea grow into something bigger.

Katty: Nice. Love it. Love it. Of course, I'm sure everybody asks you all the time, what's your favorite flavor? What’s your favorite place that you went to.  

Daniel: Yes, yes. As far as favorite flavor goes, I get asked that a lot. And my answer is always the same where I say there's no such thing. There are a time and a place for every flavor. So that's like, my canned response. But you know, and everyone hates that answer because you know, you're supposed to have a favorite. But if I think about it more, you know, cognitively I think food tastes and in general, and this very much applies to ice cream, that it's not always just about objective criteria of you know, this is like the best amount of milk fat ratio, this is, you know, supposed to have so many parts per million of you know, like a Madagascar vanilla bean whatever. I think it's very much a social experience where you know, eating with a friend, you know, you eat it at a time, like on a hot summer day, you're eating it in all these other situations that can impact how you taste it. So, it is so subjective, I don't think there is an objective criterion of what can constitute as like a single greatest flavor. Which is something that I kind of knew beforehand, but at the same time, you know, I was like, maybe I can be proven wrong, like maybe there is truly something that's like, you know, transcendent will reach Nirvana or something. Maybe, but that wasn't the case.

Katty: But it's also one of those foods that it triggers memories. You know, if you remember your childhood. Yeah, this is just comfort food, if you will.

Daniel: Oh, 100 percent. You know what, I've been talking to other people about this, and I ask them about some of their most cherished times eat ice cream, they usually like recall, sometime when they eat with their grandparent, who's no longer here. You know, they went up to like a farm by their place in some rural area, and they say it was the best ice cream they ever had. And then, you know, I'm where I was like, I'm kind of wondering like, is it truly that great? Or is it the memory of, you know, spending with a loved one that is also what's impacting, you know, some of those rosy tinted memories they have.

Katty: It’d be interesting to see, if you, I don't know, if you have plans of taking your ice cream adventure overseas, and have a  comparison, right?

Daniel: Oh, absolutely. Like, so I had those ideas like the second I finished the 50th state, or even beforehand, really, but like, similar to what I said beforehand. But the original goal was just to hit all 50. And I don't know necessarily that I would do the same intense traveling at that kind of breakneck speed that I did beforehand. But, you know, I definitely have plans to try ice cream all over the world, because throughout this whole journey, like other people will reach out to me like, “hey, yeah, I stumbled across, you know, your social media or something like that from a picture of ice cream that you took. And I was like, we have good ice cream, or, you know, gelato or custard or whatever, in like all these other different countries.” So I have invitations from India, to Australia, to Japan to you know, England and beyond, to try all these different ice cream. So the list is always growing.

Katty: Wow, fantastic. Yeah, I'm originally from Iran. And we have some really good Persian ice cream here in LA. I don't know if you've tried it or not. But I'll send you a couple links of some places to go.

Daniel: Oh, my gosh, I mean, specifically, in Los Angeles, you know, Sapphire and Rose ice cream I love.

Katty: Yes. that's the one.

Daniel: Yes. You know, I used to live a couple of blocks from that ice cream shop. So I've been there a handful of times.

Katty: Good, good, good. Good. Yeah. They make it certainly makes it very unique. For me, obviously, it reminds me of my childhood.  

Daniel: Absolutely. And, you know, there's, I mean, I do like this the sharing of cultures too, you know, you can find it. It's not just in Los Angeles, where is the only place you can Persian ice cream, but, you know, just this idea of a different take on it. And that's something that I think should be celebrated also, as far as, like, pushing the boundaries and not just staying within the comfort zone of you know, your chocolate, vanilla strawberry.

Katty: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And then again here, in LA, we have such a variety of Mexican ice creams, which are absolutely delicious.

Daniel: Absolutely. I was just gonna say like, it's surprisingly, where you think, like, such a vibrant, you know, Latino population, Southern California. And then also, like, I'm thinking about, like, other Latino populations around the country, like Miami, Florida has, you know, a lot of good Cuban ice creams, and, you know, also like some inspiration from, like, Latin American like South America to like with some of their guava with this type of like, almost like a biscuit cookie. They're called Maria cookies, but it's kind of like a biscuit cookie. But it's huge in those areas. And when it was brought to Miami, like it became the number one seller of, at this one ice cream shop in Miami. So, it's crazy how that it's literally, you know, like, exporting flavors to other areas and kind of expand the horizon. And then they perform really well, which is always, like, exciting to see.

Katty: Ice cream, is at the intersection of cultures and how it brings it all together.

Daniel: Absolutely, that that is a great way to phrase it. Just because in my personal experience, I haven't met a single person who doesn't like ice cream. I mean, I think even people that are lactose intolerant, they like the idea of ice cream, and they're just maybe a little sad that it doesn't agree with them, in their digestive tract.

Katty: Yeah. Or they have lactate pills to take so they can have ice cream.

Daniel: Yeah, they will suffer through it.

Katty: Yeah, there you go. So, I know that part of this journey that you've taken, because I know that you have an idea to write a book, it's really about the people and the cultures that you came into contact with. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Daniel: Absolutely. So when I first started the journey, you know, I had a fixed budget set aside for all my room board, ice cream, travel expenses, what have you. And then while traveling, I found out about this platform called Couchsurfing, where literally, it's an online community, you know, there's an app for it, and then you can pretty much search within a city and see if someone might be willing to let you sleep on the couch for free. And it's, it's an amazing thing, and it's not just about you know, getting a free place to stay. It's you know, about pretty much exactly what we were talking about, as far as that exchange of cultures and ideas and, you know, stories and just sharing moments with other people. And it's something that I didn't think of at all at the onset. But similarly, you know, when you kind of keep an open mind, there was like a seed that was planted, and that bloomed into something incredible. And just the idea of when I started, you know, just Couchsurfing staying with all these people, I try to learn, you know, things from their perspective, and it was just to say, life change, it would be an understatement, you know? Oh, absolutely, you know, it as far as I think, one, you know, your empathy just goes through the roof, because you realize, you know, we're all people, we kind of going outside your bubble comfort zone, you can take on new perspectives, you can learn, you can grow. There are so many different things that, you know, so many different by-products that come up from these types of travel stories and experiences. And so much so that, you know, like, there were there were times when you know, I would I try to talk about, like all the things that I learned along the way, sometimes there are, you know, I think there might be some more overarching things in terms of like hope of humanity, or, you know, like some other really big lofty ideals. And then sometimes, it's just a really cool story of how he'd know like, someone that they-- So one guy, he literally, Forrest Gump’d it and ran from Los Angeles to Miami, in like, 100 days, like, so that's like, over a marathon a day, pretty much. And so he just has a really cool story. And, you know, so I stayed with him and, and I learned about all the crazy things he's doing. And he's just a really interesting character. So yeah. So that's kind of, I'd say, some of their stories, and maybe how sometimes how they've changed my perspective on things is kind of what the book is trying to be about.

Katty: But how amazing, it’s almost serendipity here where you're doing a 50 states pursuit, and then you meet someone who's doing their own 50 state pursuit of something different. There you have that common denominator.

Daniel: Absolutely. It is interesting, too, when you just because I mean, within the 50 states, but just the city. So basically, when they're doing their own 50 standard ventures like for which are the cities that are overlapping? What are the ones that you know, may have a specialty in one area, but may not as much in another? So it's definitely interesting, and then we talked about, like, I don't know, sometimes in Couchsurfing at least, how, if there's a chance, “hey, we happened to have stayed and slept on the same couch pretty much, just by pure coincidence. And yeah. So, then there are those kinds of moments to that always just kind of fun or coincidences, I guess?

Katty: Yeah. So I know that you are very strategic, and you know, in your professional life, an account manager, and you look at data and all of that. Did you? Did you take that approach into deciding which whose couch you were going to be staying at?

Daniel: Yes, and less than yes. I mean, so I would say, it's not as much data more about just research in general. So basically, everyone on Couchsurfing, they fill out a profile, they talk about themselves, they have to, you know, in terms of -- you try to talk about some of your interests so that you might have like, common denominators things to talk about, what have you. So basically, I would say, I took some of the research approaches that I would do when I was an account manager with clients. And then, you know, tailor messages to like, outreach, like, “Hey, I noticed, you know, we both have the same favorite movie”, what have you. And then, you know, you kind of use that to bridge the gap when doing outreach. It is, in some ways, like sales a little bit. So you know, you can't just have, you know, it's not necessarily like an email blast, where you're getting it all out, I'd say it's closer to a one on one sales, where you really kind of want to tailor it to them to have the highest success rate. So there is some of that type of account management in as well.

Katty: Very relationship driven.

Daniel: Absolutely. And kind of through this, you know, as you get more experience you like you notice things that might be more effective and picking out as far as things that they've had interested in or places they've traveled to, or things that you can, like, how interesting that you get a higher response rate from then maybe someone might be slightly more generic.

Katty: Got it. Love it. What has surprised you in this pursuit?

Daniel: I mean, aside from the people, um, I mean, that's obviously a big one. I would say. I mean, I was surprised a lot. Just because, I mean, in terms of ice cream, like, I was definitely surprised at, like, some of the crazy flavors that people are coming up with around the country. You know, we talked a little bit about Saffire Rose Persian ice cream, you know, that's not that common. So, I mean, that is, is something certainly more unusual and out there. But also, there'll be other places like, you know, there's this place, forget the town, but they were right on the border between New Hampshire and Vermont, and they have like a peanut butter curry ice cream, which is really crazy to think about, but also like, surprisingly delicious, like, it has a nice nutty base, like a little curry kick at the end. So, I mean, or, you know, like, in Portland, Oregon. There was a paring blue cheese ice cream, which is like, really strange to think about, but it ends up tasting like, you know, a pear cheesecake of sorts. And he's like, “Oh, this is actually pretty good.”

Katty: Right. We have it like on a salad. Right?

Daniel: Right. Yeah, absolutely. I'll take myself a side of pear ice cream, please. So like, you know, I was surprised in those regards. And then, like I was talking about, like, all the people surprised me and how much I learned there. And, and then I also was surprised at like, how, in some ways, I was able to travel fairly inexpensively, but the other time, there were other things I thought would be inexpensive to travel but ended up costing surprisingly, more than I had anticipated. So, so things just like booking, you know, the romanticized idea of booking a train across the country or something like that. Like, those are like, surprisingly, more expensive than like, renting a car, sometimes like, really? A train ticket is, you know, sometimes, like equal parts as far as like a plane just based on like, the number of stops you do. Or, you know, buses are always the cheapest, but there's like all these other things to think about.

Katty: Okay, so in my mind, I guess I assumed, incorrectly. I assumed this was a driving trip, but not necessarily. It was a plane, trains, and automobiles trip for you?

Daniel: Absolutely. I mean, I think I took just about every form of transportation. I did take a ferry to an island. So that includes boats as well.

Katty: I guess if you wanted to make it to Alaska, you would’ve needed to somehow.

Daniel: That was a plane. So yeah, that one wasn't as connected. But there was an island, just off the coast of the states in Washington. So then we went there and had to take a ferry to get there. But the idea of-- I would often what I would do is, you know, I would go out on multiple legs, I would say, where I would do a loop of, you know, a handful of states and then maybe like, return to like Los Angeles for like, a week or two, just to like, kind of get my bearings a little bit. Gotta you know, train like that does drain you a little bit when you're just on the road. Yeah, months on end. So even though it was a full year of traveling there, it was broken up into, like, small sets.

Katty: Yeah, living out of the suitcase, I would imagine after all those months.

Daniel: Yeah, yeah, you could do that for a while. But there is something nice about you know, having a home base of sorts, you know, a nice bed to crash on.

Katty: And did you continue on this adventure on your blog so that others can follow you?

Daniel: Absolutely. Well, so the blog is specifically dedicated just to the ice cream for you. But you know, like I said, I'm really just trying to currently still reach out to like, some people, I stayed with trying to like, put, you know, a fine point on some of the things we talked about, and then hopefully get that into a book, it is definitely not an easy task. I don't know whether or not I overestimate or underestimate the difficulty of it. But it is, certainly I'm still trying to work through and you know, I do have the discipline and dedication to overcome it. I just don't know exactly how long it will be.

Katty: Yeah. Got it. But in terms of how you document it along the way, were you just journaling every, every day?

Daniel: Not every day. But you know, definitely when something noteworthy happened, I, you know, always had, whenever I got internet access, I had an ongoing, just online document that just literally has, you know, dozens of scores probably of single typed, single-spaced typed pages, where them notes from interesting things that happened or what have you. And then I have like, actual journals filled with like ice cream notes based on the flavor and like texture, composition, all that kind of stuff.

Katty: And then you came back and started working with an ice cream shop, or was that concurrently? 

Daniel: Yeah, so that was --so I took the year-long journey around all 50 states. And then towards the end of that someone kind of planned the idea, like another seed of an idea in terms of, should you open up your own ice cream shop now that you've had all these good things? And I thought that was an interesting idea. Like, maybe I should probably, maybe I'll do a little research into that. Be very thoughtful in terms of that approach. So really, what I want to do is like, learn, you know, how these the best places that I went to around the country, how do they do it? So I reached out to like, a handful or two of the best ice cream shops I visited, and asked if they would want to take on an apprentice. So there was an ice cream shop up in Maine. That was like, yeah, come on up to Maine like will make ice cream for a season. It'll be awesome, and I can teach you all about that. So that's what I did. Then after that, I road tripped back from Los Angeles to Maine to live there for like 6 to 8 months and then learned everything about ice cream making-- from running the business, all that good stuff. So, and at the same time, they were benefiting for me in terms of digital marketing and account management and some of those other skills that I had, you know, more previous corporate life. So we were both benefiting from this apprenticeship.

Katty: And then are you thinking of foraying into entrepreneurship with your own ice cream business?

Daniel: That's a great question, and the answer is no. I am so glad I did this, you know, like data mining apprenticeship to learn about it. And then realize that I don't necessarily want to open up my own shop. I'm glad I did that, as opposed to having, you know, opening up my own shop and doing the very costly mistake or learning that the hard way. I still love ice cream, I can make some pretty good ice cream now. I have the skills to do it. But as far as you know, open up my own business. There's like a handful reasons why I came to that conclusion, but I decided against opening up my own.

Katty: Well, you'll get to do it for the love and the passion of it.

Daniel: Absolutely.

Katty: Good. Good. One final question. I want to kind of bring it back to where you are now in your career and really talk about the concept of discipline. I know, it's something that you had mentioned earlier when we were talking about innovation and creativity, and you brought it back to how discipline is really where you have focused and that's really the differentiator for you.

Daniel: Yeah, absolutely, I mean, discipline is so important in that, I mean, there are so many different aspects where the discipline comes involved. One in terms of, even when I was on my journey, like I as much as is a fantastic idea to talk about, you know, all the amazing experiences that I had traveling and eating ice cream, and, you know, doing whatever. I would be lying if I said there weren't, you know, some tough times. There weren't some times when I had doubts. But the same time, you know, I, when you kind of trust in the process a little bit. You know, even if you're having a less than a great day, what have you to continue pushing forward and, you know, having that discipline resolved to kind of go through with what you set out to do. You know, just the idea of just traveling alone for, you know, extended periods of time. Like when I first started out, I didn't, I mean, I wasn't a great traveler, you know, I talked about traveling, I hadn't really done much alone. So then the idea of being alone in a foreign place before I found Couchsurfing, and I had no idea what I was doing. And you know, there are times when you get lonely like is this whole thing going to work out? But you know, persevering through that, like keeping the discipline, and then again, life-changing experience. And then discipline in terms of, you know, career-focused, like, definitely seeing something through to the end, I'd say that, you know, inspiration is well and good. It can provide, you know, momentary energy, but discipline is where you always kind of need to fall back on. And just kind of knowing, forcing yourself even when, you know, it might be a little bit tough. Because then inspiration usually comes again after that, you know, it kind of ebbs and flows. It's not always just, you know, the creative drive juices pushing everything forward. There is something that should be said, of trusting in the process and pushing through some of the tougher times too.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely. One of my favorite quotes, I actually have it up on my wall. It's a Stephen Covey, quote, just says “making and keep commitments to yourself”. It is so true. That's what the discipline comes into play is to not only make them because they sound great but actually keep them.

Daniel: And I love the part where it says to yourself, because you know, sure we don’t want to let others down, but you don't want to let yourself down too. Yeah, that's really I think, finding that internal motivation.

Katty: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Daniel, I can't wait until you get an opportunity to sit down and write Cream of the Couch. I can't wait to read. It sounds like a fascinating, fascinating journey. And thank you for taking us along.  

Katty: Thank you so much. That was Daniel Zimmerman sharing his story of the pursuit of the perfect ice cream. You can follow his blog, called TheKingofIceCream.com

or follow him on Instagram with @_kingoficecream and learn more about this unforgettable journey that he was on and everything that he learned along the way.

Thank you for tuning into this episode of the Artisan podcast. This podcast is brought to you by Artisan Creative, a staffing and recruitment firm specializing in creative marketing and digital talents. You can find us online at artisancreative.com or via social channels @artistancreative We look forward to connecting.